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Published on 08/15/2009 at Sat Aug 15 23:01.
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Kyle Orton audibles, apparently during Friday nights game against the San Francisco 49ers. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)

Kyle Orton audibles, apparently, during Friday nights game against the San Francisco 49ers. (AP Photo/Jeff Chiu)

If we learned anything from Mike Shanahan, it should be this, “Always fall forward.” If I learned anything from watching Jay Cutler play versus the Buffalo Bills tonight it was this, it doesn’t really matter who the Denver Broncos quarterback is…

Cutler, if you’re not aware, damn near had three interceptions (while managing one actual interception) against a first and second team Bills defense. No, Terrell Owens was not playing corner back, yes Cutler was confused, throwing it to the hometown Bills blue jerseys all night.

Want some real in this world? Then understand this– nothing is ever as it seems. If I’m Josh McDaniels, the last thing that I’m going to do is give you anything that can let you beat me in the regular season. I’m going to make Kyle Orton the worst quarterback that you have ever seen, I’m even going to ask him to perform like we saw Friday night… No, I’m not going to ask him to throw interceptions, but I would ask him to throw to his first read every time. Which he did.

Do you think that McDaniels is splitting LaMont Jordan out wide because he’s the fourth best receiver on our team? Do you think that Knowshown Moreno’s playing behind not just Jordan but Correll Buckhalter because he’s the third best back on our team? Do you think that Peyton Hillis is playing with our second team because he didn’t earn a shot to run one with the first time?

Most of all, do you think that Chris Simms was given charge of the second team because he could handle starting for the first team? Well, if you believe that, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I have a great price on… Seriously, it’s incredible and you can own it. Seriously, I’m not kidding you. It’s damn near free and you can see my house from there.

So Orton pooped the bed, you know what? Cutler pooped the bed too… Here’s reality though, I’d rather have McDaniels coaching my team than Lovie Smith, you know why? McDaniels isn’t a loser and even if he hasn’t won a game, he’s still undefeated as Shanahan would surely point out at this moment.

Friends, all will be revealed soon, just not yet. We know that our offense isn’t the best, it’s just effing incredible. Our defense is the one that needs a preseason and last time that I checked Doom still was wrecking havoc- the Broncos had not three, but four sacks with their first team defense. That’s where the focus needs to be, that’s where the criticism is… Did Champ lose a step? Is Moss going to make the team?

  • marv

    lol Brian Dawkins crip or blood? i think Marshall and him blood

  • SanDiegoBronco55

    poop the bed haha…dude best post ive read in a while..everything was well put…good shit man…

    spencer larsen is still a boss!

  • Nisse

    this sounds a lot like milehighreport propaganda.
    orton sucked becouse McD wanted him to suck!
    yeah right!

  • robtink242

    i’m sorry ORTON SUCKS. And personally JAY still the man but i know he misses that Giant wall we call a O line. thats what bugged me about all three pics. He had all the time he need to make proper reads. the first pic HILLIS was open. The second one was him staring down the reciever to long (Dre Bly isnt that bad of a corner. Its a reason he is second in pics next to Champ). and the last pic was lack of arm strenght.

    My man Simms was more calm in the pocket, he made better reads and his arm strenght allowed him to throw serveral deep balls. his mobility caused hm to avoid a few sacks and also extend plays. I’m not saying the guy is the best he’s just better than ORTON so far.

  • flbronc

    dont get on orton for not making reads if you are a cutler fan. he was about the worst at checking down i have seen. once the ball was snapped we knew where it was going.

    coillins had two int’s last night. the titans better pack up their season right? hell they probably wont make the playoffs. freeman got picked for a td, better close down that franchise. it’s one game in the preseason…..

  • mikebirty

    i completely disagree fl

    Orton is terrible. He’s the worst quarterback to play the position in the history of the world. This never would’ve happened if they hadn’t got rid of Wade Phillips. And that linebacker coach called Nolan. Its all Bowlen’s fault. If he’d picked me as coach i’d have been 16-0 by now. I once won 7 consecutive superbowls on Madden 99 and all i ever did was run the sweep right and throw deep outs. And i’d have traded all our draft picks and had all the top ten picks and taken all defensive players.

  • T-Money238

    Right on Ian. I agree 100%. The only thing that you see in pre-season in the physicality can the how the player adjust to a game like situation. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Nice piece.

  • Rob Bronco

    Cutler looked awful – I mean AWFUL. Granted, he doesn’t have the talented receiving corps that we have in Denver, but he looked lost. There were several passes defended that were close to interceptions.

    Cutler didn’t have a great season in 2008. He had 8 games of 1 touchdown or less. EIGHT GAMES. He had 6 games where he threw more interceptions than touchdowns. And during the Broncos infamous 3 game collapse in the final three games, Cutler threw 2 touchdowns and 4 interceptions during that span. So why is everyone STILL on the Cutler bandwagon? Yeah, he had a lot of potential, but I still remember watching that collapse and thinking, “Great quarterbacks don’t buckle during times of adversity.”

    I agree with Ian. Orton is not the second coming. But he has some incredibly strong offensive weapons which will make him look good. Give him a couple of preseason games and let’s see what happens. BTW, both the Chargers and the Chiefs lost during their first preseason game as well. The preseason means nothing.

  • Steeplebomb

    God. Thank you! I don’t like to think of myself as a kool-aid drinker but its nice to finally see some optimism on BroncoTalk. It seems like every time things don’t go perfectly to plan, a lot of the readers here collectively shit their pants. I’m sick of it. Its football! the idea is to enjoy it.

    Anyway, to the point I wanted to make. I was watching Tom Brady’s post game interview and he made a really good point. Offense is about timing and coordination. Even if all the players in a system know it perfectly, if you put them on a field and ask them to play, its going to be a shit show. My point is, it takes a lot longer for offensive players to gel then defensive players. Its almost always true that at this point in the season defense is ahead of offense in terms of performance. It may be anecdotal but I was watching the preseason highlights and almost every single one of them was an interception. That’s not a coincidence.

    Finally, I agree that Kyle Orton will never be as good as Jay Cutler. But whats done is done. At it wasn’t a straight up trade either. In the long run, I would honestly prefer Josh McDaniels, Knowshon Moreno, Alphonso Smith, and Kyle Orton to Jay Cutler. Besides, maybe the Bears will go 3-13 and we can draft Sam Bradford next year.

  • soxbigdog

    I am gonna give Orton the benefit of the doubt… somewhat…

    the first pick he threw was basically just where the defender stepped in front of the receiver.. alot of QB’s could have thrown that…
    but the last two were out right mistakes, guess he thought Dre Bly was still on the Broncos and was not playing receiver…

    Simms looked ‘alright’.. but against 2nd and 3rd string defenses and of the 49ers at that…

    But remember… its new scheme, new teammates, new rhythms, etc, etc… so I will wait til the regular season to roast him over the fire.

  • wes

    Wow I cant believe I actually thought Denver had at least knowledgeable fans of football but damn was I wrong. I mean I know my spelling sucks and a third grader may beat me in a spelling bee but at least I am football savy. Lovie Smith a loser oh thats why he has the 4th best win % in the nfc the last 4 years. Yep thats why he also ranks 6th in wins in the nfl over the same amount of time. Oh yeah our O line has 2 future hall of famers a number 1 pick and 2 gaurds that are very good. A rookie runnin back ran for 1300 + yards behind it with 8 in the box most times. Cutler broke a guy named Elways record for passin yards last season and the opposition knew what you had to do cause your runnin game was shit. Yes Jay didnt do much lastnite to impress but it was the first live action in months with Buffalo already playin once. I cant believe that if you all think he is so bad that all you guys wouldnt be thrilled hes gone. Fact is though you know hes good and ur pissed hes gone and you want him to fail just to make it sting less.Its sad you should be so happy you dont have a guy that crumbles in the last 3 games but your not you want him back and thats so funny. Maybe if he didnt have to score 30 ppg to win those last 3 games wouldnt of mattered. If you were smart you would see that he did his job over and over with a team that had and still has no D no running game with the only real talent at WR QB & the O line. Now take the QB out and take the recievers down a notch cause of your new QBs talent and watch what happens. Not to mention a coach that comes from a system where no one has had sucsess on their own even at the collage level and wow you have down graded. Truth is Denver was not to far off before this offseason but now its hard to see you guys winning 6. We here in Chicago well we may not win 6 either but we at least upgraded and its more likely we will do better cause of our upgrades. I wish You all would quit cryin and get behind your team we did it here and Orton did decent hell Rex the loser Grossman took our team to the superbowl so anything can happen. But if your gonna talk shit at least step up ur game because callin a winning coach a loser a probowl QB a choke artist and Chicagos O line no good is just plain stupid. The only thing ive read here that is at all right is Rob sayin preseason means nothing.

  • alm034

    The key is whether or not the mistakes are learned from and corrected. That’s what preseason is for. I’d rather Orton lay a three-INT turd in the preseason and learn from it rather than have a great game now and those turnovers show up in the regular season. If he continues throughout the preseason to repeat the same errors and not improve, then, yeah, yank ’em. Otherwise, patience.

  • kerry

    wow Ian. Lovie Smith is a loser?? 4th best winning percentage in the league the last few years, was in the SB just a couple years ago and he is a loser?? wow. um ok sure man. if thats being a loser ill gladly take that over a coach who hasnt even coached a regular season game. yeah McDaniels maybe undefeated, but he sure as hell hasnt won a game either.

  • Steeplebomb


    To be honest, I gave up reading your comment half way through. I really tried though! Anyway, Lovie Smith? Really? He may have wins, but are those because of his coaching skill or the Bears defense? I hate coaches like Lovie Smith because they play not to lose. Its boring! You are right that Forte is a talent but please do not try to compare your o line or receiver corps to Denver. Please. Orlando Pace was great in his prime but at this point he’s a has been. Why do you think the Rams dropped him? The Denver o line allowed the fewest sacks in the entire league last year. Your best receiver is Devin Hester. He had 55 catches last season. That’s worse than our third option. The Broncos are not perfect. No one here has ever said that. Kyle Orton is certainly worse than Jay Cutler. I don’t think anyone here has ever said that either. But some people are optimistic that a revamped defensive system and talent at essentially all positions except QB will do us well this year. Kind of like Bears fans hoping that a certain young petulant QB has enough talent to carry an otherwise no name offense and an aging D.

  • broncoNM

    Both Cutler and Orton could work on not staring down receivers and looking off the coverage. Neither team should be too concerned considering its preseason. But the potenial that Mcdaniels brings to the table is evident.
    From Lombardi on

    “I know Kyle Orton looked bad Friday when he threw three first-half interceptions, but the Broncos appeared extremely well-coached on offense. Josh McDaniels is going to be a very good head coach, especially if he can get Orton to eliminate his mistakes.”

  • NM Bronc

    I finally got a chance to look at highlights.

    I realize this was a pre-season game and that Def usually looks better in pre-season, but I would have hoped Orton would at least have looked serviceable. The problem we have is two backups vying for the starting gig. I will need to see more to make a call on the starter, but Orton’s performance was very disappointing and Simms can at least throw deep(er). The o-line and receivers looked good and the running backs will be fine provided someone is healthy enough to run.

    I did not see much of the D, but the line appeared to apply some pressure; which is better than last year.

    I think McDaniels will be ok in the long, if we don’t run him out of town. He needs another year of his own players. This feels too much like Shanahan changing his system for Plummer. And McD is a pathological liar (certainly to the media), so who knows what he is really thinking.

    This is going to be a long year with all of the changes and after Fri night, I am sticking with my 4-6 wins prediction.

  • Joe


    Do you honestly think that Jay Cutler is going to make the probowl again this year? Trust me, I am a Jay fan and I don’t even think he will. He made it last year due to the fact that he had to throw the ball a million times a game to outstanding wide recievers because as you pointed out, we didn’t have a run game. And we all know that last night was the first preseason game and yada yada yda….But do you think that Chicago’s recievers are magically gonna be able to catch balls in regular season if they can’t catch them in preseason? Preseason or regular season doesn’t matter when it comes to catching a ball. Chicago just does not have the recievers. Period. So with that said, Jay won’t make the probowl. He does not have the talent around him to shine. And plus, you guys (Bears) are a run-first offense. Like you said, your rookie RB ran for 1300 plus yards. So Jay will have good stats when it comes to little dump passes and swing passes out to him. But you guys only have one recieving threat besides your RB, and thats your TE. But every team will find that out and find ways to limit him in the game. And preseason or not, Jay will throw a lot of INT’s for you guys this year just based on your wide reciever talent. He will try to make some plays happen that can’t be pulled off with your lack of talent on offense. And plus with Rodgers, McNabb, Manning, Warner, and other good QB’s in the NFC, who actually have skilled recievers, Jay will have tough competition to get into the ProBowl. So don’t count on it. And yes, I am not a Orton fan. But like you said Grossman took you guys to the Superbowl with that lack of talent of WR’s. So maybe Orton can use our legit WR’s and our good looking RB and amazing offensive line to take us places. He looked good on that first drive until the redzone. And our defense is looking better now, and will only get better each week. And let’s not forget that whether or not Denver does good this season, we have your first round pick next draft. So with that said, let’s not forget how Adrian Peterson runs all over your defense. And how they have a good defense to stop your main offense weapon, Forte. And Green Bay is only getting better. Rodgers is good and will be better, and I think they can pull some stuff off on their defense now. Raji is a beast who will tear stuff up at NT. Even Detroit has gotten better. So with all this said, I remain confident that we will be picking top twelve again in the draft next year. Than what are all the Chicago fans going to say about Jay than? You won’t be able to upgrade with a first rounder because you wont have one…And with your first round pick that we have next years draft, we can trade up and draft a QB…
    With all this said, I am just glad that it is football season.

  • wes

    Well Steeple Thats what all you in Denver said about Orton ” Well Ortons got a better win loss record tha Cutler” and yes that was cause of the D. But as ur lack of football IQ shows Lovie Smith is a D coach just like J McD is an O coach. So I guess NE won based solely on the players & not coaching. I guess Bill up there could just not coach and the players would do it all. Hell why does the league even pay coaches right Steeple. Hester had 55 forte had 66 Clark and Olsen had 40 give or take each. We also ran the ball very well and have had a 1000 yard + runner for 6 of the last 7 years. Dont mix up that Jay is very mobile and exscaping pressure helps alot with sack totals the bud. Yeah your lines tough but who was the last running back you have had over a grand? Dont even bet on a QB like Orton extending plays with his legs he isnt that guy sack #s will go up. Orlando Pace was a Cap move for STL there smart guy yes hes old and STL was getting no where fast and he was a big Cap hit that they didnt need in a rebuilding phase. Old or not the man is a monster and better than most out there ask around he is still very good. As far as a no name Off goes well this same no name Off was what you had to sit and watch play in the superbowl less Rex plus Cutler minus Cedric Benson adding Forte Hester now in his 4th season at WR not his First AND LAST OF ALL CHECK THE AVERAGE AGE OF OUR D THEIR STEEPLES AND I BET YOU WILL SEE ITS NOT OLD AT ALL. With 1 count it just one player over 10 years in the league. His name is Brian & and he wears #54. Shit Kerry talk some sense into ur boys Lovies a loser Tampa Superbowl, StLouis superbowl, & yes Chicago Superbowl all with a certain guy on their staff whats that spell LOVIE SMITH.I pray Denver makes it to the big dance and we do too so this shit can get put too bed.

  • Ian Henson

    Sorry, I guess one could insinuate that I said that Lovie Smith was a loser, but I was merely pointing out that Josh McDaniels wasn’t. However, Smith hasn’t been with a team that has won a super bowl, so regardless of his 47-37 record as a head coach I could see the need to be defensive. He’s not a bad coach by any means, he’s coached five years and managed to average two more wins than losses per season.

  • Joe

    Wes answer to my post!

  • wes

    Yeah Joe are first round pick Ayers was tearing it up damn I wish we had that guy.Count how many QBs Bust after the First round and how many succeed and go head and see what the count is. What you are not understanding is we dont give a shit about a guy going to the probowl that isnt the thing Joe he is BETTER than anyone we have had in a very long time…period. Upgrading our talent is all we care about and we did it by getting Jay. As far as the that team in cheese country look at our record against those chumps since Lovies been here and I would be very careful about talkin shit about Defenses did you watch your team play at all last year. Its so nuts that you guys are so shitty towards the Bears for doin what the other 20 teams tried to do by trading for Cutler. We gave alot for him and trust he will be ate up if he doesnt pan out and plays like a complete ass mystriously losing all his talent here in Chicago. We would boo are own mothers if it costed us a football game. But his skill set is better bottom line than alot of QBs in this league . With a team around him built for not making one guy win games. I hope we never and I mean Never half to see Jay throw as much as he did there that only means one thing your no good anywhere else. Look men Rex and Orton both won QB of the month awards here in Chicago look at the stats and yes they did it with no name WR. Orton is not bad he really isnt bad at all but he is not as gifted and hey best of luck to him. This is what I dont get NO ONE and I mean it wouldve bitched if we had another season with him here and we hope he succeeds but what I cant understand is why you in denver are pickin us apart for doing what everyone wants to do in this league and thats get better players. What would all you and I really am talking to you Joe be sayin if Cutler was still a Bronco well I bet your tune changes a bit no scratch that I know it would be alot different. Your offense was great lastyear its sad that someone would come there and blow that shit up McD wanted Matt Cassel thats who should be looked at not Chicago and not Jay Cutler. He wasnt any good so he was traded and you should shut up and be happy with what you got for him. but your not still bitchin still moaning maybe thats where Jay got it from listening to all that cryin may of rubbed off.Go Broncos More Than That Go Chicago and Most Of ALL Thank God For The NFL

  • wes

    Thanks Ian and no one thinks McD is a loser either just a rookie making rookie mistakes. But with out mistakes learning would be impossible. I wanna see someone else come out of NE with coaching talent im sick of all Bostonians thinking they have the only genius in the league but it still hasnt proven otherwise.

  • Joe


    I’ll stop gettin’ on Chicagos case once you stop gettin’ on Denver’s case. Ayer’s could pan out to be a very good player. Like you said, every team is trying to upgrade players. And we did, so stop doggin on it. And you upgraded at QB, so thats good for your team. So I say we end it at that. But if all your going to do is bitch on this great site than you can go start your own Chicago site and praise everyone on your team….it’s clear that both Denver and Chicago are passionate about their football team so let’s keep it at that.

  • wes

    Alright Joe point taken. As a fan of the game I came to this site to get some perspective on what you guys thought you lost and or gained and your general reactions to your off season. I never intend to bash ANYONE. I like talking football and your site is as you put it great and as ill put it the best ive seen. I suppose we as cities are now forever linked in some way by this wild off season. I never thought id see a day when Shanahan wasnt ur coach at least until he choose to leave. I was floored by what has happend out your way and in a way intriged to see what you all thought.This is ur site as Broncos fans and I will respect that. So best of luck this year and I will say it one more time as a guy who has watched Orton as a Bear for a few years. Dont give up hope on that guy he will surprise you when you least exspect he will.

  • Fan From Spain

    how is Dawkins doing? any updates please ?

  • Pete

    These are my opinions of everything. And yes, I read all the comments down to #24 by Wes.
    Orton needs time in this offense. Everyone who says we should give Simms the “chance to start a preseason game” doesn’t realize that without repetitions, Orton and Simms will never master this offense. By pulling Orton after 1 game, you put the team back 2 months of preparation. Remember, Bubby Brister looked horrible, and Griese looked great (See Orton vs Simms). Griese lit up S.F. for like 34 or some odd points in the preseason. It appeared that he had the offense mastered, but we all know that if we forget history, we are bound to repeat it. Griese never did anything but throw the INT that ended Terrell Davis’s career. He buckled under pressure, and was never much of anything. So let’s keep that in perspective when you guys say that Simms “earned” a shot to be the starter. That’s just an ignorant statement, especially seeing he played against the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th string defense, as well as he had much, much easier plays called for. If we play musical chairs with our QB’s, neither will get better, and the Broncos will suffer for it come regular season. Remember Herman Moore and Tommy Maddox? PLAYING MUSICAL CHAIRS WITH THE QB’S JUST DOESN’T WORK!!!
    Orton had 3 bad passes all night. All 3 were INT’s. He never threw to a defender and had the defender drop a pick. The defender held onto each and every one.
    Cutler “had” 2 INT’s. I know the stat sheet shows 1, but he had 2. If he was wearing a Broncos uniform, the LB would not have dropped what should have been his 2nd pick.
    But that’s neither here nor there. Cutler has more physical skills than Orton, that can and will never be denied. Cutler is gone though. And as a QB not in a Broncos uniform, I hope he sucks and gets injured. I wish that fate on every single person in the NFL not in a Broncos uniform. Call me a bad person if you want, but when I’m sitting in the stadium, or watching TV, I wish death and injury on everyone we face. So in that sense I agree with Wes 100%. Broncos fans NEED to get over the Cutler trade. It’s like we’d rather be miserable than happy. And by constantly bitching about Cutler, you are choosing to be miserable.
    Our Defense looks much improved. We were putting pressure on the QB all day, and minus a few confused moments, we stopped the run very well.
    Our offensive line is still the best in the league. Orton is plenty mobile enough behind that brick wall of a line. Hell, you could wheel out a QB in a wheelchair, and he’d be plenty mobile behind that line. haha.
    Our WR’s are fantastic, and they will only get better once Marshall gets back, and once they learn this offense more and get chemistry and timing with Orton more.
    Our special teams look much improved as well.
    All in all, this was the very first game with a brand new team with brand new coaches. Only committing 4 penalties all game was astonishing. All I expected out of game #1 was us to line up correctly and hopefully not trip all over ourselves.
    Again, it is only 1 game. And that 1 game was the first preseason game. Orton was great sans 3 bad throws. Cutler was mediocre sans 1 good throw. So who cares? Cutler will be fine, Orton will be fine.

  • AtomicLeo

    Seriously, what the h*** does Cutler’s performance mean to the Broncos this year? Nothing. Nada. Doesn’t matter. If he goes to the Pro Bowl or stinks it up, it does not matter to the Broncos now. He plays for another team. Do you think McDaniels or Orton are saying to themselves this morning, ‘Thank God Jay had a bad game now we can forget about the 3 INTs on Thursday!? Is that what this season is going to be about, comparing Orton and Cutler stats?

    I do care about the two first round picks that we got in the trade. How about writing about Ayers? Or Smith for cryin’ out loud! I am SOOOOOOO tired of going to Bronco blog/fan sites and reading all this crap about another QB on a team that isn’t even in our conference. Every time Orton or Cutler breathe funny it’s all over these blogs. It’s like listening to dome deranged girlfriend who’s stalking an ex that dumped her.

    Can we please, PLEASE get a break from the Cutler news? I. Don’t. Care. I want to know how MY team, the BRONCOS are doing and preparing for this up coming season.

  • Joe

    Wes, that’s badass we can agree upon something. I will still be rootin for bears. They are the team I like in the NFC. I think we will both be suprised on how our teams do

  • Awesome, Austin

    Bears vs. Broncos Super Bowl!!!!!! Then the shit will be tossed without caring who is in the crowd!!!!!!!!

  • postalmoose

    I am with you on this article. Right on! Whether you like it or not Cutler and Orton are linked and what they do matters to the teams they left. And Cutler’s performance says two things. He isn’t as good as alot of Denver fans think and you are only as good a quarterback as the team around you and the coaches. Lovie Snith does suck as a coach and don’t give me this fifth best record crap. How many titles does he have none. McD has three but even he knows he has a team to build here before he gets a title here. I would rather have McD than Lovie at this point. And don;t give me this crap that Bronco fans don’t know football. We Bronco fans are as knowledgable as any if a little emotional but just go read Chicago Bear blogs right now and you will read the same panicky stuff. Only our offense is vastly more talented then the Bears and Orton will do better as he and his teammates gel as the season goes along. No Super Bowl this year , I realize that, but the future is so bright you gotta wear shades!

  • Joe

    Great news! Dawkins and Marshall are back on the field! And everyone should go watch that interview with them on I can’t believe how big Dawkins is. The guy is a monster and we have not had that at safety in forever

  • Kawike

    Comforting words, Ian. Nice article.

  • Brian

    Rocky Mountain Oysters or Chicago-style Pizza? I will choose pizza, but alas that will be the only love I give Chicago after this off season. GO BRONCOS!!! Right now I’m thirsty so it’s off to the fridge for a HUGE mug of Kool-Aid. LONG LIVE AL DAVIS!!!!!!

  • Brian

    The Al Davis comment is in refrence to as long as he is alive, he will continue to make the Raiders follow that commitment to excreetment!

  • Tim

    lol i see it as another jake plummer lol there will be bad games and good games but no one will no which will come lol

  • jchase8410

    the third int. had nothing to do with arm strength. he just misread how much air to put under it. He threw to the right guy, he just made the wrong throw, which has nothing to do with arm strength.